dyno Day

[scuderia]

Faron and i were talking about it today. I know how hard it is to get couple of guys together on LSMC nowadays, but would anyone be interested in the near future? We need 8-10 people.

[weezer2282]

I'm in. :thumbsup

[Derek]

I am totally in the un-know here - what's a ballpark cost? (Not that wouldn't be cool to just hang out with bunch of MINI-dyno-enthusiasts.....

Derek

[scuderia]

cost should be around $40.00-$60.00, that is the reason we need good participation so we can pull it down. Any suggestions on date, i am thinking mid April

[azuul]

i am interested, but it will totally depend on the date and my availability on that date. Our schedule is crazy. :p

[scuderia]

Well it is going to be hard to TAILOR a dyno day based on everyones schedule, that would be almost impossible. You guys can pm me for suggestions for the date.

[Will]

I'm in too but like Azzul it will depend on the date, really the only time I can not go is Sat mornings. Sat noonish or afternoon is fine. I'd be interested to see what my stock numbers are like

[weezer2282]

No more stock for me. :dancing :D The Skyline GTR at Prestige was very, very nice. :drool: :bows

[biggripper]

When I get my April Schedule from the Hospital I'll let you know. I would love some numbers.

[minifaron]

About the only way to get this started is to post a date and ask who can go and try to be as easy going as we can. This would be great to to get a Baseline on my MINI seeing as I am now going to keep it. Berk & I are going to see who can come up with the best numbers after we have done a couple of things to our cars. Hummmmm I have the JCW and a larger Throttle body. I wonder how close I can get to the JCW 207bhp..... Lets post a date & go from there Berk! If we have to we can get some people with other cars to join us as well. HeHeHe How about a wekday evening, is that possible?

[weezer2282]

About the only way to get this started is to post a date and ask who can go and try to be as easy going as we can. This would be great to to get a Baseline on my MINI seeing as I am now going to keep it. Berk & I are going to see who can come up with the best numbers after we have done a couple of things to our cars. Hummmmm I have the JCW and a larger Throttle body. I wonder how close I can get to the JCW 207bhp..... Lets post a date & go from there Berk! If we have to we can get some people with other cars to join us as well. HeHeHe How about a wekday evening, is that possible?

Did that throttle body change the throttle butterfly whistle at all? That whistle is one of my pet peaves and I'd love to get rid of it or lessen it. I was thinking of modifying a stock MCS throttle body with some chamfers on the butterfly. Haven't even gotten pricing on a stock throttle body yet though. :eek2

I will represent for the MCSa's. :dancing :p

[scuderia]

ok, i will talk to couple of places and get a date by Friday.

And then we sort the list of people.

[azuul]

ok, i will talk to couple of places and get a date by Friday.

And then we sort the list of people.Sounds like a plan. You might get a few dates and then post a multi-vote poll to judge interest and availability for each date.

[weezer2282]

Sounds like a plan. You might get a few dates and then post a multi-vote poll to judge interest and availability for each date.

Or how about one date and tell whether you can make it or not. :thumbsup If you can then that's cool and if you can't then maybe next time. :p Just my two penny's.

[Derek]

ok, i will talk to couple of places and get a date by Friday.

And then we sort the list of people.

cool - JLMK

Derek

[Derek]

Did that throttle body change the throttle butterfly whistle at all? That whistle is one of my pet peaves and I'd love to get rid of it or lessen it. I was thinking of modifying a stock MCS throttle body with some chamfers on the butterfly. Haven't even gotten pricing on a stock throttle body yet though. :eek2

I will represent for the MCSa's. :dancing :p

Oh I rather like that noise....

[minifaron]

Are you talking about the Supercharger whine? I like it! The more the better for me! HaHaHa This is just another way to prove that the ability to "youify" your MINI is the reason we all like them! I love it..... MINI is the most fun unusual car ever. I love them....HaHaHa Look at my left shoulder I had better!
OK OK OK I had an idea...
I was thinking about getting a Group buy together. Berk & I both want to get Supersprint Headers for our MINI's. I know that I can have a guy install them. But the more people that can do it the cheaper the cost! I do not know the cost YET, I will get that done after I have found out if it is worth it for me to look farther into this. If you are interested in me looking into this farther, please let me know via email minifaron@yahoo.com .

[weezer2282]

Are you talking about the Supercharger whine? I like it! The more the better for me! HaHaHa This is just another way to prove that the ability to "youify" your MINI is the reason we all like them! I love it..... MINI is the most fun unusual car ever. I love them....HaHaHa Look at my left shoulder I had better!
OK OK OK I had an idea...
I was thinking about getting a Group buy together. Berk & I both want to get Supersprint Headers for our MINI's. I know that I can have a guy install them. But the more people that can do it the cheaper the cost! I do not know the cost YET, I will get that done after I have found out if it is worth it for me to look farther into this. If you are interested in me looking into this farther, please let me know via email minifaron@yahoo.com .

No, not the supercharger whine. It is an air whistle from the throttle while only at part throttle. The supercharger whine is fantastic, but the air whistle can be very annoying.

[minifaron]

I don't know that I know what you are talking about, cant say that I have heard it. Next time you are at the dealership, we can go for a ride in both MINI's That way you can show me what you are talking about, and you can ride in mine to see if you hear it!

[azuul]

I was thinking about getting a Group buy together. Berk & I both want to get Supersprint Headers for our MINI's. I know that I can have a guy install them. But the more people that can do it the cheaper the cost! I do not know the cost YET, I will get that done after I have found out if it is worth it for me to look farther into this. If you are interested in me looking into this farther, please let me know via email minifaron@yahoo.com .minifaron, you will need to edumocate me on what a Supersprint Header is and what it does. Sorry for my ignorance. :confused:

[weezer2282]

minifaron, you will need to edumocate me on what a Supersprint Header is and what it does. Sorry for my ignorance. :confused:

Steve, it is an exhaust header. A very nice, high quality one. It connects the exhaust to the engine block. It has 4 pipes that merge together into a big pipe and can have a catalytic converter or a straight pipe.

[scuderia]

it provides a better tone to your exhaust and improves your low end torque, a good application to cars with pulley, CAI, and catback. An ECU remap is higly recommended due to the fact that the car will run rich, and change the A/F numbers ;) BTW, I got a new GTI DSG and MCS is gone, but Heather (my wife) is getting a Mini Cooper, so I ain't going nowhere(i am glad i spilled it finally) .

[k-huevo]

Contrary to the above post, that combination of modifications will not cause the car to “run rich” in an excessive power robbing sense of the phrase. The MCS has a forced induction engine where A/F mixtures for a normally aspirated motor are not relevant, mixtures toward 10 and even slightly “pig rich” lower are appropriate with an overdriven supercharger, in high ambient temperatures, on risky pump gas, at high rpm. The stock program is more than adequate for handling any of the modifications listed previously for the vast majority of conditions encountered on the street. Most aftermarket program flashes alter pre-determined response maps to improve aggressive performance, some alter timing to a conservative extent advancing spark which can increase upper rpm performance in a small way; in pursuit of larger gains some piggy-back alternatives adjust A/F mixtures but at the expense of “fooled or false” sensor feedback info and in the same fashion other piggy-back tools can advance spark to the limits and sometimes beyond critical safety margins. The JCW flash and a few other flash programs actually de-tune to attain smoother driver usability and increased safety headroom.

A blanket statement about the association between modifications and A/F mixtures is only Internet speculation. The only close to accurate way of knowing if your car is running excessively rich is to monitor outputs with a wideband sensor while the car is under load. An added bung on the header with an onboard reader will suffice for real-world applications or a wideband sensor that replaces the post cat O2 sensor while on the dyno (it will still give a slightly richer reading than reality). A tail-pipe sniffer will get close readings, but is a little less accurate. And, again, low A/F numbers are not necessarily a “bad thing”.

If a header is chosen that does not have provisions for one or both stock O2 sensors then an emulator should be used to provide a dummy signal to “fool” the program and avoid dash lights & fault codes; this is where the abnormal A/F feedback information starts and inappropriate adjustments by the stock program begin.

No MINI aftermarket header will magically unlock your car’s performance potential; for the MINI it’s only one small element in improving the flow path. Unfortunately, that improvement is confined to the operating parameters addressed by the header’s design. The engine is an air-pump system, it won’t matter how much improvement in spent gas elimination can be had if other elements in the flow path aren’t improved, mainly, the head. The stock header is up to the task within the greatest percentile of street usage. In other words an aftermarket header is a luxury not a necessity.

[scuderia]

Agreed most part written above, however, like you said, on a forced induction 1.6 little 4 cyl. motor, it is extremely important to have good A/F numbers. This ain't a good old V8, and it is not tolarable to have bad A/F # for the sake of smoothness and effectiveness. A HEADER+CATBACK COMBO WILL RUN THE CAR RICH, regardless of all speculations, unlike big motors on a MINI IT WILL NOT UNLOCK NO MAGICAL NUMBERS, because it is a small volume MOTOR (1600cc), however even if it is 3hp, I am in on it, whatever i can squeeze from the little motor, and the exhaust noise is priceless :D . All complicated words for nothing, it is simple ;)

[k-huevo]

Berk, writing suppositions in caps don’t make them fact. Why did you add larger injectors? If any MINI would run overly rich with the modifications you say it will then why would your MINI need greater fuel bandwidth? How many extra fuel points will the addition of an aftermarket header supposedly give to the MCS and then show me supportive documentation of that supposed fact?

[minifaron]

WHAT? What are you trying to say? I am not trying to sound stupid, but what are you saying?

[weezer2282]

Agreed most part written above, however, like you said, on a forced induction 1.6 little 4 cyl. motor, it is extremely important to have good A/F numbers. This ain't a good old V8, and it is not tolarable to have bad A/F # for the sake of smoothness and effectiveness. A HEADER+CATBACK COMBO WILL RUN THE CAR RICH, regardless of all speculations, unlike big motors on a MINI IT WILL NOT UNLOCK NO MAGICAL NUMBERS, because it is a small volume MOTOR (1600cc), however even if it is 3hp, I am in on it, whatever i can squeeze from the little motor, and the exhaust noise is priceless . All complicated words for nothing, it is simple

I thought the 1.6L was gone now? :confused: :p How about that 2.0L Turbo? I bet that can put out some pretty good numbers easily. :thumbsup

[weezer2282]

Berk, writing suppositions in caps don’t make them fact. Why did you add larger injectors? If any MINI would run overly rich with the modifications you say it will then why would your MINI need greater fuel bandwidth? How many extra fuel points will the addition of an aftermarket header supposedly give to the MCS and then show me supportive documentation of that supposed fact?

It seems like this is starting to turn into a NAM type flame war. :flame It is a possibility that a header could make the engine run richer and it is also possible that it might not affect it at all. The only real way to control the A/F ratio is to have it tuned on a dyno with a computer that allows custom tuning. And yes, adding larger injectors will obviously make it run richer, but they are somewhat needed when forcing more air into the engine. Please have some respect for each other everyone and try not to turn this into a flame war. :thumbsup

[minifaron]

I was not trying to flame anyone. I was truly asking what he was saying. I am still not clear, will a header improve the performance or not? I would hate to spend the cash on my MINI, and have it all go for not. I have 2005 JCW and a larger throttle body. Please advise...Getting all the opinions that I can, and coming to my own decision is what makes me feel the most comfortable.
Ahhh I may just let it be.......I have another car to play with. I need to keep my MINI safe from anything happening. It is my ride to & from work!

[Derek]

...BTW, I got a new GTI DSG and MCS is gone...

duuuuuuude 'sup wid DAT?

how's shiftin'?... ;)

Derek

[scuderia]

Derek, I know, yesterday "All of a sudden in my little brain" :D not enough words to describe how fast that s****t is. Not the car, the DSG :p

Well, My wife is going to be selling/trading her 2003 TDI Jetta for a MCc, which will be spec'ed to my taste as well. Gotta talk to Faron. So I am still in the Mini world, an active and proud member of LSMC, not a traitor :( will be around and will have a Mini in the household forever ;)

BACK TO TOPIC:

Prestige Perfromance on 1604 and Tradesman is installing a Dyno machine which will be finished in 2 weeks. I already made pre-arrangements with Mark, so they will be available for a weekday or a Saturday, I might even talk him into a Sunday if we get enough attendance. I know I started this with a Mini, now i don't have it, but I have bunch of great friends that I will never lose contact. We gotta do this.

Faron, your car has JCW and naturally JCW ECU upgrade, so it will not be effected and the performance gains will be more noticeable with the headers compared to a stock MCS. As a matter of fact that is the only upgrade I would consider on a JCW.

[weezer2282]

Derek, I know, yesterday "All of a sudden in my little brain" :D not enough words to describe how fast that s****t is. Not the car, the DSG :p

Well, My wife is going to be selling/trading her 2003 TDI Jetta for a MCc, which will be spec'ed to my taste as well. Gotta talk to Faron. So I am still in the Mini world, an active and proud member of LSMC, not a traitor :( will be around and will have a Mini in the household forever ;)

BACK TO TOPIC:

Prestige Perfromance on 1604 and Tradesman is installing a Dyno machine which will be finished in 2 weeks. I already made pre-arrangements with Mark, so they will be available for a weekday or a Saturday, I might even talk him into a Sunday if we get enough attendance. I know I started this with a Mini, now i don't have it, but I have bunch of great friends that I will never lose contact. We gotta do this.

Faron, your car has JCW and naturally JCW ECU upgrade, so it will not be effected and the performance gains will be more noticeable with the headers compared to a stock MCS. As a matter of fact that is the only upgrade I would consider on a JCW.

So they are gonna have a dyno at Prestige now. I'm in. The guys at Prestige are great. Hmmm...I can't make up my mind what to do next though. I'm considering the Alta intercooler diverter, the larger alta intercooler, an Invidia, or MTH+finally putting on the JCW injectors laying around.

[weezer2282]

I was not trying to flame anyone. I was truly asking what he was saying. I am still not clear, will a header improve the performance or not? I would hate to spend the cash on my MINI, and have it all go for not. I have 2005 JCW and a larger throttle body. Please advise...Getting all the opinions that I can, and coming to my own decision is what makes me feel the most comfortable.
Ahhh I may just let it be.......I have another car to play with. I need to keep my MINI safe from anything happening. It is my ride to & from work!

I know you weren't. It was just the few other comments before yours were starting to get a little heated. :eek2

The header should for sure add some performance to your JCW. You already have a pulley, intake, and head so you will probably see more gains than someone with a stock MCS might see. The gains probably won't be as noticeable as a pulley change would be though. It should for sure change the exhaust sound...I don't think anyone will argue that especially if it is a straight pipe.

[k-huevo]

Faron, I’m not sure if your question is with my post or not. I’ll try to restate my viewpoint if that’s what your confusion is about and make it more relevant to your situation. Keep in mind that my perspective is all about street usage.

Moving more fresh air in, promoting efficient combustion and moving spent gasses out is the goal for enhancing performance in any motor. It doesn’t matter if the spent gases exit freely if the air movement before and within the head is limited and that’s where the design restrictions of the MINI motor comes into play.

On the outside it would appear the stock header has restrictions that would impede flow and that would be the case if there were more demands placed upon it. The primaries are short by comparison to other high rpm motor designs however the MINI’s strong point is everyday user mid range. When air usage increases there is a corresponding need for fuel, if that need is not fulfilled then a lean condition occurs, improving the exit of spent gases (aftermarket header, enhanced exhaust port geometries, larger exhaust valves, etc.) encourages more air to move through the head promoting the lean condition, not a rich condition.

There is more to the explanation. The stock DME is highly adaptive and adjusts mixtures (also spark timing) very well compensating for most air moving enhancements (mods) up to a point. The stock program also has safety measures in place, if intake temperatures are high, pre-ignition detected or intake manifold pressures are high, then more fuel is added beyond what is required for efficient combustion resulting in unburned fuel exiting with exhaust gasses, a rich condition (the good kind). An aftermarket header with functioning O2 sensors will not trigger a “fail safe” fuel enrichment response by itself nor will it be a catalyst for any of the other negative effectual conditions.

Your JCW uses injectors that can add more fuel for a given time frame enhancing its ability to protect itself and compensate for increased fuel needs resulting from the overdriven supercharger and the marginal flow increases the JCW head, intake, and exhaust provide. Let’s not forget earlier versions did not have larger injectors and they didn’t melt down. The JCW lacks however the greater flow characteristics needed to take advantage of an aftermarket header. There’s no reason to feel left out as a JCW owner because even with air hungry highly modified MINI motors, gains are very small and only at whatever power band the header is designed to excel at. Whether your money “goes for not” if you purchase one is a matter for personal sensibilities as long as your not expecting too much of an outcome beyond increased exhaust noise. It’s all-relative, if I pay five hundred dollars for a tool and use it weekly I think it’s a bargain; if I pay one dollar for a tool that I never use, it’s a waste in my book. On the safety question, an aftermarket header is not potentially harmful unless it is catless and then the environment and ultimately human health suffers.

[Derek]

Derek, I know, yesterday "All of a sudden in my little brain" :D not enough words to describe how fast that s****t is. Not the car, the DSG :p



To be honest, after the review on MototignFile, I was gonna head over and take a test drive...

I did see a nice R32 at CarMax a few weeks ago....

[minifaron]

WOW! For some reason I missed the first two posts of the argument. But it I think it all makes sence now. As long as I am not expecting tons & tons of gains its worth it. All I am expecting is a little cooler sound, and hope a little quicker!

[weezer2282]

DSG in a MINI would be even better. :thumbsup

[minifaron]

OK If I can get a few people together, I know a guy that will do a Dyno Party. If you are interested please let me know, email me at minifaron@yahoo.com I am looking forward to seeing what I have under the hood! I am not interested in doing this unless the cost is less then $40.00. In order for that to happen, we have to have a small group of people! :dancing

[scuderia]

count me in

[weezer2282]

Did someone say a party? I'm in. :thumbsup

[Will]

Is it Fiesta time again? WOOOHOO!!! :)